View Poll Results: EU Referendum - remain or leave?

Voters
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  • Remain in the EU.

    9 39.13%
  • Leave the EU.

    12 52.17%
  • I honestly do not know what we should do.

    2 8.70%
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Thread: EU Referendum - Remain or leave?

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  1. #1
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    EU Referendum - Remain or leave?

    What is the consensus on Smartz - remain in the EU or leave? And why?
    (Voting BTW, is confidential - your voting preference can not be viewed by others).
    Last edited by pinger; 24-05-2016 at 05:23 PM.

  2. #2
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    I honestly don't know why this is a decision for the general voting public.

    Not only do we not truly know the economic and social impacts of leaving, we are truly biased by our own often misguided fears.

    Immigration being a good point to raise.... How much do we need a European workforce? Why are the unemployed uk nationals not gaining employment in those jobs which are advertised competitively. What is the net financial gain/loss to the uk taxpayer for having a European workforce? What levels of illegal immigration forms part of our own fears and beliefs?

    And let's face it, everyone picks out the facts that support their own agenda so how do we know which has the biggest weighting/impact/benefit to the uk?

    The public is generally ill informed and prejudiced yet decide the fate on something that could create the downfall of the whole European construct!

    Just my thinking thus far...

    JJ

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  3. #3
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    I think no-one knows as no-one has left before! but the remain group is using scare tactics that the leave group are countering very well. Not impressed with the money spent on bumpf either, when there have been no real facts in any of it!

    Biased media doesn't help, for example....how little we hear of issues at Calais these days?

  4. #4
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    The first point I make is that it is incumbent on those who want us to leave to make the (positive) case for leaving. This, they have failed to do.
    What we can reasonably assume is that remaining in the EU will be very similar to how it's been for the previous several decades. That that includes peace across Europe is not be undervalued. Brexiters whine that they 'have never been asked' re EU membership. I remind them that they have never been asked to fight in two horrific world wars...

    Why this decision is being farmed out to the public is because the right wing element of the (uncontrollable by DC) Tory party want it, could achieve it by parliamentary method alone (no referendum is actually required) but they know that parliament would not vote it through. Thus, they farm it out as a plebiscite in the hope that some populist low grade thinking will achieve their ends.

    Immigration being one of the heartstring tuggers they hope will work for them. It is well enough understood that there is a net economic gain from immigration. The overstretching of resources (where it actually occurs) is a consequence of failure to reinvest that economic gain back into the necessary infrastructure. Ask not if we should permit immigration and ask instead where the money is going.

    There appears to be an acceptance of those who promote leaving that short term pain will be a small price to pay for regaining sovereignty. Of course it is - they won't be the ones losing their livelihoods when Sterling crashes 20%. Any business that sources external to the UK will be heavily hit by currency devaluation. And for what? Sovereignty? Sovereignty note, not the infinitely more valuable democracy. Democracy we will never have for as long as we have an unelected monarchy and an unelected House of Lords, both of which will (along with parliament) be strengthened without EU legislation that safeguards populations from rabid right wing government (of the type currently vying for supremacy). In short, putting our own house(s) in order will achieve much more for this country than blaming every ill on Jonny Foreigner and reneging on our commitment to the EU.

    The future of the EU. Much as before I would imagine and if it is truly in crisis it will be in crisis on our doorstep even if we leave. It isn't quite the basket case it is presented as (seen Syria lately?) and it's influence on us is preferable to an overbearing USA (especially when a new president is elected) and within it we still have influence.

    In such (internationally) troubled waters, I think we are best seved by remaining in the EU. Brexiters please make your case....

  5. #5
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    Pinger - your last post is much too confrontational for my liking and clearly looking for an argument with no real interest in the viewpoint that is different to your own.

    You've clearly made your mind up and I mine.

    Nothing you have said or will say will make me change my position.

    I've been keeping my finger on the pulse of the referendum for months now and will be getting off my arse to use my vote and sincerely hope that a gigantic number of like minded individuals will do the same.

  6. #6
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    I hate to side with pinger but I don't think he is being confrontational nor trying to convince anyone to vote remain.

    He makes valid points

    As someone clearly not in a position to run the country or the Bank of England or any position of policy maker in the UK, I'm aghast as to why I'm being made to make a decision without all the info being made available (easily)

    Just because 1 person shoutsouder than another or creates a bleaker picture than another it's not a reason to side with them.

    It's similar to the royalty argument - 1 newspaper would say they are a drain on tax payers money while another reports that they bring in revenue!

    Also the latest police commissioner votes - trying to even find out minimal info of them was really hard, let alone what they were intending to do. And what was the reason for their affiliation to a politcal party on the voting slip? What's that got to do with things?!? It should be party agnostic?!?

    Anyway - this discussion is gonna cause extreme reactions but for once I know pinger wasn't being as described above

    JJ

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild1976 View Post
    I hate to side with pinger but I don't think he is being confrontational nor trying to convince anyone to vote remain.

    JJ
    I'm sorry to disagree but why is it incumbent on brexiteers to "make their case" - they have and he has decided to listen to and take the opposing point of view.

    Using phrases like "brexiteers whine about" shows complete disdain for those with a different point of view.

    And so it goes on.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinger View Post
    ..... Democracy we will never have for as long as we have an unelected monarchy and an unelected House of Lords, .........
    and I'm sure that the un-elected rabble in Brussles will be a much better alternative ;-)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by problemchild1976 View Post
    I honestly don't know why this is a decision for the general voting public.

    Not only do we not truly know the economic and social impacts of leaving, we are truly biased by our own often misguided fears.

    Immigration being a good point to raise.... How much do we need a European workforce? Why are the unemployed uk nationals not gaining employment in those jobs which are advertised competitively. What is the net financial gain/loss to the uk taxpayer for having a European workforce? What levels of illegal immigration forms part of our own fears and beliefs?

    And let's face it, everyone picks out the facts that support their own agenda so how do we know which has the biggest weighting/impact/benefit to the uk?

    The public is generally ill informed and prejudiced yet decide the fate on something that could create the downfall of the whole European construct!

    Just my thinking thus far...

    JJ
    Wonderfully measured and balanced thoughts.

    But also an indictment of Direct Democracy.

    And yet when the US exercises Representative Democracy - we (the World) end up with Trump. Except it is probably better to see Trump as the result of Direct Democracy as well, because the Electoral College doesn't really do anything other than magnify the First Past the Post effect. There was no evidence of enlightened representatives making a carefully measured decision by electing Trump, it was just a rubber stamp.

    Don't forget, he didn't win the Popular vote, he had about 100,000 less votes than Clinton. So that's the worst of both worlds!

    Direct Democracy would have resulted in Clinton - oh the Irony...
    Last edited by UKKid35; 17-11-2016 at 11:04 PM.
    Paul
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  10. #10
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    Brexit played well for Trump - or should I say he played it well? Austria, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, and France all have elections soon in which candidates of the right will stand and stand to secure a significant portion of the votes if not outright victory. Each success will embolden and deliver the next. When none of them deliver on their promises to their electorate there remains but one option to distract attention from that. War. Putin rubs his hands in glee as the world falls for the myth of the strong man.

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